They actually taught Poetry Voice in my high school. It's like a secret super power I can whip out to annoy and/or mock people, although I'm pretty rusty on account of never having any need or desire to use it outside of high school English class.

Stars for shedding light on poetry voice. I found a lot of drama-leaning kids in high school and college got all into "being this way" whenever they felt they needed to make a point. At the time I didn't recognize it as poetry voice but tacked it down to their drama club ego bleeding off into the real world. Being an election year it would be great to see one candidate do every debate in this voice and see how long everyone else can put up or compete with it.

...it must be sexism...

Now that I think about this more, Xeno, I think you're on to something, and this should have been what the poem was about. Why did said thinkpieces andthe Taylor Mali thing cut only one direction, when there are quite a few dumb, immature ways of talking/thinking based partly on sex, race, class, etc?

Unfortunately, Lozada-Oliva would rather stomp through thoughts about someone 'taking back' airhead talk b/c Patriarchy *forced* them to talk like that, which is bananas.

Check out this channel, it's nothing but angry rants disguised as poetry.

Seconded. Although the most popular 'slam' thingy on the channel is a SWM rapping about his OCD. So there's a whole, wide range of slams out there. Only like ninety-nine percent are angry SJ rants.

Also, how great that that's the most popular one, followed by a jillion rants about men, whites or straights.

You make a valid point that women do it each other. But I think she's speaking to the root of the problem. The patriarchal sexism that fucks up everyone's thinking.

If both genders are sexist, how can identifying sexism with one gender be getting to the root of the problem? I realize that sexism was probably invented by men, but all of those men are dead now, and those of us who are still here are all trying to work with the culture that we've been handed.

MRAs complain about "feminists" oppressing them. Feminists complain about "old white men" oppressing them. I believe the reality is that sexism is oppressing us all, and it's coming from all of us. We're no longer living in a formal patriarchy, so the patriarchal traditions and expectations of the past are failing us.

Men vs. women will never resolve the problem. It's going to have to be Men and women vs. Sexism, or endless heartbreaking stalemate.

Exactly. When the poet specified "Old white men", she was doing the exact opposite of "speaking to the problem." She conjured an image of a particular type of person which is both misleading & counterproductive.

I certainly take your points. Especially that it should be everyone vs. sexism. But I still think that as men are the the gender "in power," it's perfectly valid to speak to men about it.

Prof. TeenerTot
PhD in Dichotomy Studies

@TeenerTot:

In what sense is it valid?

To put it another way, what is gained by putting the image of an old white men in people's heads? As JHM stated, it's often women that are the enforcers of the patriarchy. Hell, according to my wife (who took more feminist-oriented history courses in college than I did) women are often the *primary* enforcers of patriarchy. I'm not objecting to her characterization because I, as a white male, am offended. I'm objecting because I think it's unhelpful in every sense.

Anax:
>>women are often the *primary* enforcers of patriarchy
This I don't know about. Are there real studies to back up this claim?

I'm not saying women don't engage in the sexism that we're steeped in. I'm saying that _as long as the men are "in power"_ it is appropriate to let them know when they're being sexist.
Did you watch the video that popped up here this past week about the "spaces" for women in public, including speaking? Check it out if you haven't. It gives some interesting stats of how women are less valued in speaking, ideas, etc. The poet here is addressing those very things. It seems totally obvious to me that in the context of addressing how men seem to think women are "less than" them, you address it to the men.

I'm not saying women don't engage in the sexism that we're steeped in. I'm saying that _as long as the men are "in power"_ it is appropriate to let them know when they're being sexist.

I don't believe that there's such a thing as any one gender being "in power" in all times and places, and if you believed it, you wouldn't put it in quotes, There are a lot of situations, a lot of contexts, a lot of layers. There may be a glass ceiling that makes it difficult for women to rise to the top of the corporate world, but if you're a guy with a job who gets 10 bucks an hour, that's not the world you live in, and you're as likely as not to have a woman for a boss. Women have a lot of the power in relationships. This is a big complicated thing, so I'm not going to try to convince you right now. If you're a woman, you're probably going to see this differently, and of course that's only natural. What I'd like you to believe is that WE see it differently. Some men may have the inside track to economic privilege, but economic privilege is getting scarcer and scarcer. So what does that leave us?

Now, there is misogyny, and there are all kinds of bad behavior that the worst men indulge in. These are real feminist issues, but they're not legitimate male power, so I'm not counting them. Rape is not male power in this context. It's a crime. Being a man doesn't empower you to commit rape, You have to be a criminal for that. If you're not a criminal, the existence of rape hurts women, but it doesn't help you.

>>The poet here is addressing those very things. It seems totally obvious to me that in the context of addressing how men seem to think women are "less than" them, you address it to the men.

Because telling people that they're the problem is a GREAT way to get them to open up to new ideas!

addressing how men seem to think women are "less than" them, you address it to the men.

Are you sure you're not mistaken about this atittude, at least some of the time? Imagine that you're a shy male trying to talk to a woman, because you're the guy, so that is expected of you. So you need to act confident, without acting arrogant, which is not easy if you're faking it. And I'm supposed to actually listen to what she's saying to me? I'd rather juggle bowling balls.

>>I don't believe that there's such a thing as any one gender being "in power" in all times and places and if you believed it, you wouldn't put it in quotes

I put that in quotes because I wasn't referring to power in the classic, congress-type sense. I'm referring to how men hold more head positions in academia, business, well, most of our social areas. Sorry, I should have been clearer.

>>Because telling people that they're the problem is a GREAT way to get them to open up to new ideas!
I'm not arguing whether it's a good strategy or not. The question was posited "Why is she going after white males?" And I'm just saying "Why not?" It's her poem, it's her recounting her experiences. What's the big deal? If you're trying do say that white males aren't part of the sexism problem, well then I don't know what to say.

>>I'm referring to how men hold more head positions in academia, business, well, most of our social areas.

I'm referring to the fact that if you're an old white male, you're more likely to be working as a line cook in a restaurant where you don't have health insurance, and you can't afford a car so you take the bus, than to be the CEO of whatever, and you're likely to not feel like you're "in power", even if some women have it worse.

>>I'm not arguing whether it's a good strategy or not. The question was posited "Why is she going after white males?" And I'm just saying "Why not?" It's her poem, it's her recounting her experiences. What's the big deal? If you're trying do say that white males aren't part of the sexism problem, well then I don't know what to say.

That's exactly what I'm saying. I'm saying that the problem isn't men who are white, it is people who are sexist. I'm trying to say that scapegoating is part of the sexism problem, and when you use "white male" as shorthand for "sexist jerk", that's what you're doing. You KNOW that there are all kinds of shitty things that MRAs say about women that could be defended as "he's recounting his experience".

JHM, i have been raped and i don't think that either my rapist or myself have had an easy time considering him a criminal. rape can be much more complicated than that and i think that in itself directly speaks to the concept of "in power." sexism is insidious and tangled and deep.

>> sexism is insidious and tangled and deep.

Too true.

>>JHM, i have been raped and i don't think that either my rapist or myself have had an easy time considering him a criminal. rape can be much more complicated than that and i think that in itself directly speaks to the concept of "in power."

I don't know if you're going to see this, so I'm going to be more terse than I would otherwise. I'll watch this space for a few days, and if you want to have a long respectful conversation about this, I'll be available for that. I'm going to ask you to see things from my point of view, and I feel a little fucked up about asking that from a rape victim.

Suppose, hypothetically, I'm a man, and I don't want to rape anybody. Also suppose, hypothetically, that I know what rape is, and I know what consent is.

Certainly anything that makes rape seem like consensual sex should qualify as rape culture, right? I'd suggest that if I'm a man who doesn't want to rape anybody, rape culture doesn't empower me in any way, and it saddles me with a horrible stereotype.

I think the example you give speaks to the concept of "in power", but applying the concept to an entire gender is neither accurate nor helpful.

I believe that SEXISM makes men emotionally dependent on women, and that is not power. Women used to be economically dependent on men, and women quite rightly freed themselves from that dependence. They may not make as much as men, and they should, but they have options that they didn't used to have. What men need to do is follow women's example and free themselves from that emotional dependence.

I wouldn't call it an ARTLESS screed.

Like me, like you.
Like everyone we knew.
Like good, like bad.
Like all those times we had.
Like right, like wrong.
Like that old familiar song.

I'm sure the guy who gets to play with those walks an incredible verbal tightrope/labyrinth at all times.

And if he's like a few guys I've known, he does that shit while snickering in his sleeve so he can fuck her for a while, beating out others dumb enough to talk to her with less politic and guile.

I know that's fucking crass but I've been witness to 4-5 situations like that with good-looking angry women and the sly bastards who can talk the talk.

Hey, That Guy, you seem really angry today. Wanna talk about it?

Nah.

Am I wrong for observing shit that farcical actually happening, or for mentioning it?

On a stack of bibles, I've seen that shit happen quite a few times: the most ideological girl dating a complete Tartuffe.

My guess is it would be a case of him not saying anything at all...ever.

I didn't say anything about you being wrong. I said you sounded angry.

*shrug*

There's no helping me.

>>Am I wrong for observing shit that farcical actually happening, or for mentioning it?

You're speculating about who gets to play with the poet's titties. That's not exactly right.

The butt of the joke here is how awful kookoo ideologues can be to be around in person on a daily basis, who gets through their filter, and how she thinks it's all enemies and offenses at every turn. If you think she's right on point, we have a fundamental disagreement. The rhetoric on display is extra-blamey and nuance-free, and it's totally dishonest.

The hard-right ideologue is sometimes exposed and laid low for being a sham or a crank or a hypocrite etc. You have your gay-hating preachers who love to suck dick in airport bathrooms, etc. etc. And when this happens it's usually hilarious, albeit sometimes in a grim way.

If I paint a hypothetical picture of her as rhetorically exacting, and yet duped by monsieur Tartuffe, you'll forgive me if I think the satirical pattern is equally delicious from right to left as from left to right. She's primed for either being:
a) horribly sexist and racist in what she does to men and/or whites, but is *sure* she's not
b) exacting on how she judges people's politics, yet fairly easy to dupe because she approves of outward show and disapproves of honest disagreement, like any ol' ideologue
c) either the duper or dupee in a relationship that's fucked up it a way that beggars belief

The butt of the joke is not titties.
Plus, you and she need your sensitivititties played with a bit, anyway.

Her ideology might block people with honest differences of opinion from getting along with her, and let through only the tightrope-artists. It could be a hypocrite, or it could be someone as tendentious as she is. People in their teens through maybe early 30's or so play some crazy games to land the sex partners they want. Don't tell me only SWMs do that.

None of these concepts are out of bounds on this site. I can redraw the lines here just as much as the easily-offended can.

If your point was she may be a lesbian, sure..... As if there aren't ways she might very well be a crank or a hypocrite in that direction, either, right?? "She can't be sexist, she's a lesbian". No lesbian couple ever abuses each other right? And when they do it's because patriarchy, right?

Plus, I can speculate about who gets to play with those, just in general.
A cat can look at a king.

>>If your point was she may be a lesbian, sure..... As if there aren't ways she might very well be a crank or a hypocrite in that direction, either, right?? "She can't be sexist, she's a lesbian". No lesbian couple ever abuses each other right? And when they do it's because patriarchy, right?

>>Plus, I can speculate about who gets to play with those, just in general.
A cat can look at a king.

Look, you think I didn't notice her tits immediately? It's not a big deal, okay? but let me suggest to you (and to you too, Homer) that letting a pair of great tits go by without commentary would be... classier. We all see them. Let them speak for themselves. Just my opinion.

I did.

The worst of these would be the shaved-headed lass who recited a "poem" i.e rant about "female ejaculation" and how wonderful it is because obviously something or other. IT NEEDS TO BE OUTSIDE MY BODY AND IT DOESN'T JUDGE ME. or something like that.

Wait, here it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anDZBvZdR0g

she looks a touch psycho, and I'm not saying that just because she shaved her head and has scribbly tats on her arms.

yeah, I watched that one earlier today on a "slam poetry rulez!" jag on this channel

she really builds up a metaphysical system about what female ejac means, or something, and men can't take it away from her not evar

other than that, she has a lot of nice things to say about men!!
surprisingly gracious!!

Booooo!

lighten up JHM
grim, hardly-serious ironies still play here

I love how a woman speaking her mind is enough to make people: question her credentials/sanity, criticize her language/voice, denounce poetry in general, and exclaim desire to cause her violence. Weee the internet/society.

You forgot to mention the speculation about who gets to play with her titties.

I am Woman!
Hear me roar!
Like totally Wow!
Whatever for?

Hey, John, she's got GREAT tits. Stop trying to reduce her to a one-dimensional object; you can respect both her voice *and* her boobies.

I don't see the problem. She's just (gross simplification and distortion of her actual message and tone)!

I love how Megyn Kelly speaking her mind on how much she loves America makes people get angry and flip their shit. Weeeee liberals.

I love how Glenn Beck being passionate enough about a subjec to cry on air causes people to question his sanity. Weeeee demon-rats.

I love how preachers trying to spread the love of Jesus Christ our lord causes people to denounce religion in general. Weeeee godless atheists.

OOOPS!