The CIA doesn't need to do false flag attacks to make Russia look bad.

Yeah the cia just has such a spotless history of doing the right thing.

I can’t believe you’re dumb enough to think Russia blew up its own pipelines that I could just shut off at any moment.

Hey while we’re talking about your gullible stupidity, is the school shooting also a false flag?

LOL, you know who else is saying this is a US committed false flag? Tucker Carlson. You agree with him. You automatically lose.

So you said it’s a false flag, so you’re agreeing with tuckky?

CIA blowing up the pipeline isn’t a false flag. It’s just sabotage for American geopolitical benefit.

Cena using ad hominem and middle man fallacy. A two-fer, congragulations! Please try again.


Cui bono?


Why would Russia destroy their property when they control the spigot?

Who would advantage the most from this sabotage?

Well you used the fallacy quoting dumbass fallacy, where you think calling out the logical fallacies you learned about in Intro to Philosophy class your freshman year of college makes you sound intelligent l. You're like grammar Nazis, but even more pointless, because at least grammar is a necessary skill. Suck the dick of a true Scotsman.

So instead of addressing his points you just start whining about college courses.

Really winning the argument here.

Did you notice you’re turning back into a right wing shitheel? Because discrediting the messenger is their favorite “debate” “tactic”.

Isn't the answer to cui bono Ukraine? And its immediate closest allies at this stage Poland and the Baltic nations? The Baltic states in particular are in a position to pull this off quietly. Nobody is spoiling for a NATO fueled escalation more than those states. And to be clear, I'm a strong supporter of Ukraine and of them winning this conflict and Putin's collapse/demise. And to be even clearer this was super dumb move by whoever did it (definitely not Russia).

Whoever did it, btw, had to be able to pull off fairly complex underwater demo operations probably using submarine launched vehicles or deep diving demo personnel (so they could not be spotted by satellites) or an attack sub. None of the Baltic states (including Finland) have submarines at all. The Poles have one (Orzel).

Either America or Ukraine somehow.

Both parties don’t want Russia to have leverage over the Europe with cheap natural gas supplies.

Though I'm usually rooting for SolRo (I love a plucky underdog), I do have to say that I'm a big fan of Cena's recent work. Just really fine form.

@rural, yes...

The Polish member of parliment claiming it's the USA, tied with the history of Poland and Ukraine makes it so devious.


Attack subs at 70-meters? I thought that was not too difficult to spot for a nation state. China should have some interesting metal detectors in orbit capable of detecting a lump of metal moving about. You would need at least a pair of nifty robotic devices, ideally made with mixed composites too pull this off quietly. People are dumb and lazy. Some fingerprint must exist.

100 meters is considered the safe limit for scuba diving with tri-mix so it could literally have been accomplished with a couple people on a dingy.

The coordination though points to a state action.

It definitely isn't Poland, they have screen doors on their submarines.

Pretty sure Poland is not blowing up pipelines, but these actions move Ukraine territory closer to Polish control.

What would be the purpose of either the US/NATO or Russia destroying a pipeline that hasn't moved any gas in almost a month and with no plans to ever do so again?

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/sep/04/gas-prices-ri se-russia-shuts-nord-stream-1-indefinitely

Plus Europe / Germany had already said that while it would be tight, they didn't need Russian gas this winter.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/03/world/europe/eu-germany-rus sia-natural-gas.html

Plus the new Baltic Pipe just opened yesterday bringing gas from Norway to Poland and the Baltic states. So while not direct to Germany, seems there's already another alternative gas supply to Europe.

https://www.euronews.com/2022/09/27/baltic-pipe-norway-poland- gas-pipeline-opens-in-key-move-to-cut-dependency-on-russia

The motivations for this seem far from clear to me without cloak and dagger stuff like "market manipulation" or "false flag" or "sending a message" or "warnings to allies" or something. Some or all of these explanations may be true, but without more evidence, are obviously true answers. I don't think any explanation of what really happened and why, once discovered, would surprise me here.

... are **NOT** obviously true answers ...

Edit button please?

Europe still faces rationing and economic slowdowns this winter without Russian gas. What they say about “making it” is not having to turn off residential heating and letting people freeze to death. Plus prices will spike.

The rationale for sabotage is that Russia will try to force concessions from Europe as the winter squeeze hits. If the pipelines are destroyed Russia can no longer do that. Sucks for Europe but furthers US/Ukrainian interests.

Europe doesn't need Russia's gas. This is likely yet another disastrous overestimation on Russia's part. Isn't this whole mess happening because Russia overestimated their military's capabilities?
You bring up economic implications, big deal. You think the world didn't go through economic hardship and rationing to take down Hitler? Sacrifices will be made and I'm willing to support that sacrifice.
US/Ukrainian interests are the interests of most of Europe.

LOL, I noticed many of these comments speculating submarines, robotic submersibles, and super deep ninja commando divers to destroy this pipeline... Yes, it must have been a country with such state of the art military capabilities... Or maybe one that has an anchor. https://tinyurl.com/5etaxsvn

Oh hey, the idiot once again shows he doesn’t actually know all the facts about an event before taking a determined stance on in.

Shit for brains, seismographs detected likely explosions in the area when the leaks started

Nice use of the strawman fallacy. Try again.

Correction, it was an appeal to authority fallacy. Oh let's just listen to the seismographs. Seismographs can never be questioned.

Look at the coasty trying to act like he’s gone to community college.

I'm 3 classes away from a masters degree. That right there is the hasty generalization fallacy.

You paint me as an anti-intellectual. I don't hate education. I just hate when nerds disrupt a discussion by calling out logical fallacies. We all do it, and calling out little fallacies adds nothing to the debate. Are logical fallacies involved when I called out your agreement with Tucker's conspiracies? Yes. Are you still a dumbshit for hawking Tucker's conspiracies? YES! How is it not reasonable to call you out for possibly drawing from such unreliable sources? How does Lef help by flexing his experience at philosophy 101? I took the class, too. I learned about the cave with the shadows and all that shit. There's a special place for philosophy, and it's the classroom. Leave it there. It rarely pertains to serious grown up discussions like the one Solro and I are having.

First of all, you’re an idiot.

Second, you’re an idiot because you started off by dismissing logical fallacies, and then decided to use them to act clever, but instead you ended up showing you don’t actually understand their definitions.

Third, you keep showing us how fucking stupid you are by trying to talk down to everyone not agreeing with your dumb jingo logic while openly demonstrating you aren’t aware of what’s happening with the event in question.

You called me a name, that's an ad hominem! LOL, I'm not really trying to call out logical fallacies as a weapon in our debates. I'm mocking the practice. I'm showing how obnoxious and counterproductive doing so is. I made it clear from the start my feelings on the practice. It's stupid, don't do it.

I work a full time job, part time grad student, married, and I try to work on music every day. PARDON ME for not putting 100% of my intellectual efforts into internet arguments. Especially when the person I'm up against sees nothing but the shadows on the wall presented by Putin and the Kremlin. That's Plato's allegory of the cave. I learned it my freshman year of college.

For being too busy to know what you’re talking about you sure have a lot of time to keep shitposting to defend your idiotic opinions.

When Godzilla walks out of the sea in a few days and starts laying waste to eastern europe in a few days, all you guys' little arguments are going to look super silly.

I want it to be clear that I do not think about what I post for more than a second.

Best comment yet, Ashtar.

Russia is allies with Iran. I'll bet Solro opposes the protests there.

You voluntarily work for a government that supports and protects Saudi’s Arabia’s and Israel’s ethnic cleansing campaigns. So good luck convincing me you have moral superiority.

I do. I save lives and promote maritime safety. You may as well be accusing the postal workers of supporting genocide.